Sweetness and light is the phrase that comes to mind as I read this Tommy. Your observations seem to come from a place of good humour, and wisdom… now I’m sure there is a great deal more to you than that- but that’s what came up for me just now.
On a more serious note I’ve been intrigued by Simon Critchley’s Tragedy the Greeks & Us. In which he argues that the Greek tragedies offer us a better understanding hideous madness of the current world than perhaps any other approach. He draws on Nietzsche’s argument that since Aristotle the Dionysian side of humanity has been neglected…so we are lead to believe that it rationality has all the answers… which clearly is not the case ..
Oh, I don't know . . . being known as a wise wisecracker sounds pretty good to me, so thank you.
I am not up on Simon Critchley, but his book looks interesting. It may provide contrast to the role that the Greek concept of virtue plays in our lives.
I ran across several studies of V-PAM (Virtue-based Pyschosocial Adaptation Model). V-PAM relies upon Aristotelian virtues like courage or integrity to help patients gain some spiritual positive from coping with their ailment. This may just be more think-good be-good nonsense but then it is hard to be Dionsysian with low dopamine. Reaching for virtue may all that we have left.
hello wise wisecracker as you, (unlike all my london friends who sadly decline engaging on this level of discussion) have shown interest if you like can send you more pf these emails between myself and a scottish friend - poet/writer who has kived in Germany for thelast 30+ years
Absolutely. You may say it was Fate that my son and I were just talking (mainly him talking) about Nietzsche and the concept of an "Übermensch." He has a political science class where he is studying such. From your list, I think Musk would come closest but if he heard the word Übermensch, he would probably think a German taxi service and try to buy it.
I could read the book and then give you a more deliberated answer, but I'll have to give you an irrational one! I think Critchley is probably right, but what does understanding our world and its ills mean in this context? How do we approach or act on the experience we glean from reading tragedies? And when we start to discuss the contribution of Greek tragedians to our understanding of humanity, are we closer to Aristotle or to Euripides? What makes us aghast in Tragedy (with a big T to separate it from the countless tragedies we read of in the press) is the relentnessness with which those hideous events follow one another. They are not and cannot be mitigated by Aristotelian reflection or analysis, nor does Christian forgiveness ever get a look-in. In other words, Fate in the landscapes of Aeschylus, Sophocles or Euripides unfolds with inexorable force and expedition: there is no counterpart, no rational structure that can stop it. We still find some of that in Shakespeare (e.g. Macbeth), but by then we have the influence of one and a half millenia of Christian ethics proposing other routes to humane rebalancing.
Now for your question. Does Trump bear all the characteristics of a Nietzschean "Übermensch", or did you mean the Nazi appropriation of that term? I don't think anybody is an Übermensch, but in our time individuals, especially those in powerful positions (Trump, Biden, Musk, Starmer, Putin etc. etc.) still have the "right" to unleash "tragedy" on very large numbers of people, and most of these "leaders" do so following a period of reflection (e.g. Iraq, Gaza, Ukraine) or even after democratic process. Arguably, continuing climate deaths would be unnecessary under certain circumstances (we no longer believe in Fate), and yet reflection, weighing up the gain and loss, has been unable hirtherto to propose a viable solution and follow it through with appropriate effective action.
I think the problem is that ancient Tragedy does give us a view of human life bowed under the inexorable force of overwhelming and largely hideous events, and yet that force is able to show its face only under the auspices of ancient ritual and beliefs, whereas the forces wreaking havoc in our own time are only graspable by analysing the political, economic and military "moment". In short, we need the right tools of analysis (enter Aristotle), not the attribution of mythical status (e.g. Supermensch!).
To which i have just replied
Thank you - this is tremendously helpful - and makes realise that I shall have to read the whole book properly and read the Tragedies
- something I should have done in the first place.
On the tragedies do you like Anne Carson’s take? I’ve only dipped a toe in her direction but was very excited by her Autobiography of Red a radical retelling of the myth of Geryon and Herakles, based on fragments Stesichorus' poem Geryoneis.
Sweetness and light is the phrase that comes to mind as I read this Tommy. Your observations seem to come from a place of good humour, and wisdom… now I’m sure there is a great deal more to you than that- but that’s what came up for me just now.
On a more serious note I’ve been intrigued by Simon Critchley’s Tragedy the Greeks & Us. In which he argues that the Greek tragedies offer us a better understanding hideous madness of the current world than perhaps any other approach. He draws on Nietzsche’s argument that since Aristotle the Dionysian side of humanity has been neglected…so we are lead to believe that it rationality has all the answers… which clearly is not the case ..
Oh, I don't know . . . being known as a wise wisecracker sounds pretty good to me, so thank you.
I am not up on Simon Critchley, but his book looks interesting. It may provide contrast to the role that the Greek concept of virtue plays in our lives.
I ran across several studies of V-PAM (Virtue-based Pyschosocial Adaptation Model). V-PAM relies upon Aristotelian virtues like courage or integrity to help patients gain some spiritual positive from coping with their ailment. This may just be more think-good be-good nonsense but then it is hard to be Dionsysian with low dopamine. Reaching for virtue may all that we have left.
hello wise wisecracker as you, (unlike all my london friends who sadly decline engaging on this level of discussion) have shown interest if you like can send you more pf these emails between myself and a scottish friend - poet/writer who has kived in Germany for thelast 30+ years
Absolutely. You may say it was Fate that my son and I were just talking (mainly him talking) about Nietzsche and the concept of an "Übermensch." He has a political science class where he is studying such. From your list, I think Musk would come closest but if he heard the word Übermensch, he would probably think a German taxi service and try to buy it.
Please send more.
Dear Nick,
I could read the book and then give you a more deliberated answer, but I'll have to give you an irrational one! I think Critchley is probably right, but what does understanding our world and its ills mean in this context? How do we approach or act on the experience we glean from reading tragedies? And when we start to discuss the contribution of Greek tragedians to our understanding of humanity, are we closer to Aristotle or to Euripides? What makes us aghast in Tragedy (with a big T to separate it from the countless tragedies we read of in the press) is the relentnessness with which those hideous events follow one another. They are not and cannot be mitigated by Aristotelian reflection or analysis, nor does Christian forgiveness ever get a look-in. In other words, Fate in the landscapes of Aeschylus, Sophocles or Euripides unfolds with inexorable force and expedition: there is no counterpart, no rational structure that can stop it. We still find some of that in Shakespeare (e.g. Macbeth), but by then we have the influence of one and a half millenia of Christian ethics proposing other routes to humane rebalancing.
Now for your question. Does Trump bear all the characteristics of a Nietzschean "Übermensch", or did you mean the Nazi appropriation of that term? I don't think anybody is an Übermensch, but in our time individuals, especially those in powerful positions (Trump, Biden, Musk, Starmer, Putin etc. etc.) still have the "right" to unleash "tragedy" on very large numbers of people, and most of these "leaders" do so following a period of reflection (e.g. Iraq, Gaza, Ukraine) or even after democratic process. Arguably, continuing climate deaths would be unnecessary under certain circumstances (we no longer believe in Fate), and yet reflection, weighing up the gain and loss, has been unable hirtherto to propose a viable solution and follow it through with appropriate effective action.
I think the problem is that ancient Tragedy does give us a view of human life bowed under the inexorable force of overwhelming and largely hideous events, and yet that force is able to show its face only under the auspices of ancient ritual and beliefs, whereas the forces wreaking havoc in our own time are only graspable by analysing the political, economic and military "moment". In short, we need the right tools of analysis (enter Aristotle), not the attribution of mythical status (e.g. Supermensch!).
To which i have just replied
Thank you - this is tremendously helpful - and makes realise that I shall have to read the whole book properly and read the Tragedies
- something I should have done in the first place.
On the tragedies do you like Anne Carson’s take? I’ve only dipped a toe in her direction but was very excited by her Autobiography of Red a radical retelling of the myth of Geryon and Herakles, based on fragments Stesichorus' poem Geryoneis.